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Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
07-23-2011, 01:01 PM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2011 01:02 PM by widi.)
Post: #1
Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
Do you mind telling me what motivates you revive this dead project?

When deli linux was stopped, I wondered if anyone would like to fork it and revive it. However, due to my work/job, I cannot afford developing full day; furthermore, my computer skill is quite limited, so I cannot fork deli repository and revive it. I used to ask other friends, their response is negative, due to heavy work load.

What is your plan in developing deli, given the availability of puppy and tiny core and others such as damned small linux? I use puppy linux WARY in my old 586 and it works perfectly fine. However, puppy linux cannot run on my 486 smoothly (cpu 200MHZ, ram 128mb maximum). I can't help but reinstall win98 with KERNEL_EX so that I can install OPERA 11.0 and use it smoothly with the aid of mem booster to manage ram usage. Win98 is suXk in memory management.

If you really want to revive it, I hope it can be as friendly as puppy linux at least, since people are not so familiar with old hardware components. That will be my sincere wish to this forked project.

I still keep 0.72 and 0.8 iso up to now. Glad to see deli being revived.
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07-23-2011, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 07-23-2011 05:55 PM by tavvva.)
Post: #2
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
Hello widi :]

Welcome!

I heard from people on the ConnOS forum, that some potential DeLi users still exist. I also own some older pieces of hardware and since it is my work and hobby, I told to myself ... WHY NOT? :] Ressurrection of DeLi is a kind of puzzle for adults. It's really a challenge ... I have to select the latest working pieces of software and create patches for them in order to make them work together. And ... If I have no positive feedback, I still can say ... It was a good entertainment and fun.

That's why I'm willing to fullfil all acceptable wishes from users.

Believe or not ... more than 90GB of the DeLi/DeLi(cate) stuff has already been downloaded from this new server. That means more than 6GB per day. So ... I can say, some users still exist ... maybe they are just curious and that's why they download the stuff ... I don't know. Smile

And my plans?
Update, what can be updated ... add new software in the repository (since people often give old computers to children, I'll try to add more games) ... add support for some of the least problematic wireless cards ... enhance the delitools .... add some configuration tools for legacy network devices (I've done that with legacy soundcards already ... sndconfig) .... and ... of course .... if somebody has any wishes, I could try to fullfil them.

Browsing the internet on 486 is really kinda unreal these days :] But as I've added dillo in the repository, You can try that with dillo .... it's much faster than skipstone and netsurf. And for sure faster than opera.... the rendering capabilities are worse, but it's sufficient for reading the news :]

Does Your 486 really have 200MHz frequency? AFAIK the fastest 486 cpus available in my country had 133MHz (if I don't count the new generation CPUs like AMD Geode LX).
I'd really like to see that. Do You have any photos? I'd like to see how the motherboard looks.

Thanks!
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07-24-2011, 02:36 AM (This post was last modified: 07-24-2011 02:57 AM by widi.)
Post: #3
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
ah...haha, you're right, only 133MHZ. sorry for my stupid memory mamagement.
I used to try alpine linux, which is the only one (up to now) distribution that insist using uClibc as core library for my 133MHZ based 486. (Their webserver seems closed) The result is disaster, extremely slow. I guess they compiled too many built-in kernel modules. deli-linux is the only distribution that can at least work smoothly.

However, deli linux, cannot replace puppy linux up to now, due to its lack of user-friendliness (for example, let's say detect a Lucent based dial-up modem, it has many dialogs telling you what he will detect, how he will detect, and what will be the next steps..etc) and good applications (good lightweight browser such as opera, which is lightweight enough, but it can cover most of my daily need, browsing, atom feed, email, bookmark everywhere....).

Puppy linux still have redundant things. It has too many pre-installed applications which aren't quite useful, media players for example. My 133 CPU is cyrix, and mplayer media player cannot even start, because it is compiled without cyrix support I guess. Listen online radio station utility isn't useful, either. Games are quite boring. I rarely play those games for fun.

Damned small linux seems stop developing due to developers preferences and arguing with each others. Too bad.

win98 has BLUE SCREEN frequently, but sarcastically I can run opera 11.0 with the aid of KERNEL-EX. I guess this is the best result I can achieve up to now....too bad.
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07-24-2011, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 07-24-2011 09:58 AM by tavvva.)
Post: #4
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
I was searching a bit and some people were able to overclock their Am5x86 to 200MHz by changing the bus clock from 33MHz to 50MHz. I have one motherboard for 486 CPUs with PCI slots that has the ability to set the 50MHz frequency, but currently equipped with Intel Pentium OverDrive 83.1MHz (33x2.5)... It has 64MB RAM (72pin FastPage SIMM).
Anyway ... It's a big nostalgy to play with jumpers without labels Smile

Alpine Linux as well as Puppy is based on 2.6 series kernel ... and that's a huge difference.

Regarding the userfriendliness ... I guess You're talking about the hardware configuration. I'm aware of the lack of HW configuration tools, but this can be hardly achieved without testing and feedback. I don't have access to all the legacy devices Smile And I believe, that HW configuration needs to be done just once, so ... that piece of pain doesn't last too long Smile

mplayer probably doesn't care about the CPU brand (Cyrix/Intel/AMD/...). It may be compiled with support of technologies like MMX, SSE, etc .... but Cyrix CPU should't be the reason for failures to start -> there's probably a different reason. Hard to guess.

Opera browser isn't bad, but the lack of source codes is the biggest issue. It doesn't run with uclibc and older version of libraries. I would have to ask the devels to build it directly for DeLi(cate) and give me the final binaries .... You can imagine what they would say Big Grin

I found some statically linked binaries on their web .... sooo ... I could try to test their speed and let You know.
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07-24-2011, 10:29 AM
Post: #5
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
There is always a feeling of "alien". Let me explain.

Just think about the most simple situation. I need a browser which can let me read zh_TW.UTF8 LOCALE news (I read libertytimes everyday http://www.libertytimes.com.tw), and having a lightweight input method (xcin or oxim) to type some keywords to search zh_TW locale pages.

It seems Dillo cannot render other locales' webpages. Links2 only handle cyrillic-based and ascii-based locales.

People who use alphabet-based languages can hardly imagine the main hurdle/difficulty lies on language support. Of course uClibc has UTF-8 support, which is OK under Deli 0.8.

The key problem is input method. There are many input methods for tone-based languages.

I failed to compile xcin, because xcin heavily depends on glibc, and it needs to be heavily modified in order to fully compatible with/dependent on uClibc. Xcin is quite obsolete input method, the sucessor is OXIM. In order to make deli linux usable, I must get xcin or oxim compiled and installed, together with zh_TW.UTF-8 and zh_TW.Big5 locale support.

Under puppy linux, I survived after times of configuration test, and OXIM work smoothly. Yet, it still take me lots of time to get things done.

Sometimes I think I should force myself not reading any news websites other than ASCII based locales, and I think I'd better do so. Nobody is responsible for us to get xcin or oxim compiled against uClibc, right?

Fall back to win98 with opera 11.0 using KERNEL-EX is, so far, the easiest way to get things done. Opera can render most of locales, and I can still using dummy zh_TW input method to google zh_TW keywords.

Yet, I still wish I can get rid of crappy win98. I hate blue screen!
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07-24-2011, 01:32 PM (This post was last modified: 07-24-2011 01:35 PM by tavvva.)
Post: #6
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
I was able to build oxim 1.4.4 under DeLi(cate) after some fighting ... but ... it probably needs a lot of tuning, because the application is probably missing the right fonts .... Unfortunately I don't know how the application looks when it works correctly and that's probably the biggest issue Big Grin
I would have to search for some youtube videos showing the work with oxim ...
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07-24-2011, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 07-24-2011 03:44 PM by widi.)
Post: #7
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
yes, it needs a lot of tuning for sure. Kindly download oxim's pet for puppy linux and tar zxvf it. The file structure indicate the location of those files.

In my puppy linux WARY, (since puppy linux user always ROOT), I type less ~/.xinitrc, the following snippet is required:

#!/bin/sh
# $Xorg: xinitrc.cpp,v 1.3 2000/08/17 19:54:30 cpqbld Exp $

. /etc/rc.d/PUPSTATE

## insert by chinese_pack-4.1.0.8-tw ##
locale | grep "LC_CTYPE=\"\?zh_TW\." || export LC_CTYPE="zh_TW.UTF-8"
##########

## insert by oxim-1.2.1 ##
. /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/oxim
exec oxim &
########## oxim


OXIM had put all the LC_ALL and LANG environment variable settings into /etc/X11/xinit/xinput.d/oxim.
Under Puppy linux, I don't even modify ~/.xinitrc, because these two packages (chinese_pack-4.1.0.8-tw, and oxim-1.2.1) had already inserted these two snippets into my .xinitrc

However, chinese_pack-4.1.0.8-tw doesn't put zh_TW.UTF-8 locale into the right directory.
It puts zh_TW.UTF-8 locale to /usr/lib/locale
After testing many times, I copy /usr/lib/locale/zh_TW.UTF-8 to /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/locale ,
finally /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/locale has zh_TW.UTF-8, and after reboot, puppy linux can automatically triggers oxim, I can find a small icon in jwm taskbar right-bottom corner.

Once this small icon appears, I can configure furthermore. Click the "configure" of this small icon,
I can download tons of input method modules (including japanese, korean, thai, vietnam, taiwan, china, hongkong), depends on which module I need.

Previously I intentionally install puppy linux Lucid 5.11 to 486, and also install opera and oxim, get everything done, but the speed is quite slow. I sensed that in order to make Linux usable for me, at least 586 is required if I insist using Puppy linux. I don't know how the performance will be once opera and oxim can work under Deli Linux, but I definitely will give it a try.
You can get precompiled puppy pet packages (outdated, but still useful) from http://sites.google.com/site/mmamtb/

locales, fonts, and input method modules never changes, so, you can extract only those locales, fonts, input method modules just in case you cannot find them after compilation of newer version.

In this webpage you will see another input method utility called "gcin", this is actually too heavy for deli linux. I've tried it under Puppy linux. Rendering speed suXks.
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07-24-2011, 10:55 PM
Post: #8
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
I'll try to play with that tomorrow Shy
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07-25-2011, 11:53 AM
Post: #9
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
my old pc has Genuine Intel Pentium® processor, (Pentium 233MHZ with MMX), 128mb (72pin) ram, mobo is asus VX97. I guess this old pc is 586. But due to ram limit 128MB, I seldom can run any decent applications.

ftp://ftp.asus.com/pub/asus/mb/sock7/430...97-101.pdf
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07-25-2011, 12:17 PM (This post was last modified: 07-25-2011 09:11 PM by tavvva.)
Post: #10
RE: Glad to see deli revived, from Taiwan
(07-25-2011 11:53 AM)widi Wrote:  my old pc has Genuine Intel Pentium® processor, (Pentium 233MHZ with MMX), 128mb (72pin) ram, mobo is asus VX97. I guess this old pc is 586. But due to ram limit 128MB, I seldom can run any decent applications.

ftp://ftp.asus.com/pub/asus/mb/sock7/430...97-101.pdf

Well ... this is ideal candidate for DeLi(cate). I believe You can use NetSurf or Skipstone without worries on such configuration. I'm still thinking of adding a more featured web browser for faster computers. We'll see.
i430VX chipset should be able to handle at least MDMA2 mode and if You enable 32-bit IO support, with hdparm, then You can make the harddrive access/transfer faster.
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