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questions about delicate
05-07-2012, 01:15 PM
Post: #1
questions about delicate
Have been reading some of the posts on the Connochaetos forum, but hadn't heard anything about DeLi(cate) until I accidentally ran across it via search engine. Had some questions on how DeLi(Cate) compares to Connochaetos. Does DeLi(Cate) still use ulibc or does it use eglibc like Connochaetos? Is there any support/infrastructure for users sharing packages they've built on DeLi(Cate)? Any differences between package management on Connocahetos and on DeLi(Cate)?

Thanks.
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05-07-2012, 04:22 PM (This post was last modified: 05-07-2012 04:24 PM by nl2stk.)
Post: #2
RE: questions about delicate
(05-07-2012 01:15 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  Have been reading some of the posts on the Connochaetos forum, but hadn't heard anything about DeLi(cate) until I accidentally ran across it via search engine. Had some questions on how DeLi(Cate) compares to Connochaetos. Does DeLi(Cate) still use ulibc or does it use eglibc like Connochaetos?

Hello and welcome :]
I can answer a few questions.
Delicate is using uclibc.

(05-07-2012 01:15 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  Is there any support/infrastructure for users sharing packages they've built on DeLi(Cate)? Any differences between package management on Connocahetos and on DeLi(Cate)?

Thanks.

There is a PKGBUILD section in the forum, where users share they're builds it has lot's of tips and if they're 100% Tavvva put them in the repository. There are differences between C.Os and Delicate, I believe the PKGBUILD section clears a lot of your question.. Smile

Hardware in use: Compaq PIII- 1GHZ, Geforce 4000, 256mb, 80gb HD
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05-10-2012, 10:02 AM
Post: #3
RE: questions about delicate
(05-07-2012 04:22 PM)nl2stk Wrote:  
(05-07-2012 01:15 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  Have been reading some of the posts on the Connochaetos forum, but hadn't heard anything about DeLi(cate) until I accidentally ran across it via search engine. Had some questions on how DeLi(Cate) compares to Connochaetos. Does DeLi(Cate) still use ulibc or does it use eglibc like Connochaetos?

Hello and welcome :]
I can answer a few questions.
Delicate is using uclibc.

(05-07-2012 01:15 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  Is there any support/infrastructure for users sharing packages they've built on DeLi(Cate)? Any differences between package management on Connocahetos and on DeLi(Cate)?

Thanks.

There is a PKGBUILD section in the forum, where users share they're builds it has lot's of tips and if they're 100% Tavvva put them in the repository. There are differences between C.Os and Delicate, I believe the PKGBUILD section clears a lot of your question.. Smile

Hello ...

Since ConnochaetOS is trying to be libre, it's not allowed to recommend anything what could potentially go against the strict "libre" rules required to meet the guidelines for Free System Distributions and therefore the ConnochaetOS project can't recommend even it's predecessor DeLi Linux, because it could potentially contain software that isn't entirely free.
We're not as much restricted as ConnochaetOS and that's why we can recommend any linux distribution in the world Smile

Like Theo mentioned, we're still uclibc based.

.... and we're still using an older version of pacman (not 100% compatible with the one present in ConnochaetOS and current versions of Arch Linux). Our pacman doesn't support subpackages (and that's why we often have to move everything from the package section to the build section and subpackages need to be created as separate packages). But our version of pacman is patched to send triggers to the menu generator.

I'm trying to do a review of all PKGBUILDs and sometimes they pass even if they aren't 100% correct. I usually try to give some feedback about issues found in the PKGBUILDs and their final versions can be found in the source repository : http://delicate-linux.net/0.1/src/

DeLi(cate) project started as an effort to keep the DeLi Linux support still somehow alive, because the ConnochaetOS project changed the former DeLi target and some pieces of hardware (owned by hardware enthusiasts) could not meet the minimum requirements for running ConnochaetOS. That's why we sometimes intentionally stay at older versions of software.
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05-10-2012, 06:50 PM
Post: #4
RE: questions about delicate
I personally llike having a non-libre operating system. I happen to like BSD a lot and prefer their licensing to GNU when I can find alternatives. If you're interested in some lightweight BSD-style licensed alternatives to GNU programs, let me know.

I'll update my web page when I get a chance to mention Delicate as an alternative to Connochaetos. Sounds like it would be more useful for older systems. I don't think I'm ready to give up running FreeBSD on my laptop for now, since I have everything pretty much installed the way I like it. However, if I hadn't found FreeBSD as a good lightweight operating system alternative, I'd definitely be trying out Delicate right now on my laptop. I'm always on the look-out for nice lightweight programs to run on my computers. Hopefully, I can compare notes with some Delicate users as to which programs work best on older systems. I've been digging up old source code for various lightweight fltk, sdl and pdcurses applications and adding patches as necessary.

By the way, I don't know if Delicate has a desktop environment available, but I ran across a lightweight desktop environment project that might work on it. Equinox Desktop Environment ( http://equinox-project.org/ ) is fltk based and has active development going on. I did get fltk to compile with ulibc on an older version of DeLi at some point, so I think this might build in that environment. You can download EDE from:
http://ede.svn.sf.net/viewvc/ede/trunk/edelib/?view=tar
http://ede.svn.sf.net/viewvc/ede/trunk/ede2/?view=tar
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05-10-2012, 09:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-10-2012 09:57 PM by tavvva.)
Post: #5
RE: questions about delicate
(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I personally llike having a non-libre operating system. I happen to like BSD a lot and prefer their licensing to GNU when I can find alternatives. If you're interested in some lightweight BSD-style licensed alternatives to GNU programs, let me know.

Sure we are :] It's always good to mention alternatives ...

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I'll update my web page when I get a chance to mention Delicate as an alternative to Connochaetos. Sounds like it would be more useful for older systems. I don't think I'm ready to give up running FreeBSD on my laptop for now, since I have everything pretty much installed the way I like it. However, if I hadn't found FreeBSD as a good lightweight operating system alternative, I'd definitely be trying out Delicate right now on my laptop.

FreeBSD as well as NetBSD is pretty good operating system. Both of them are instelled on my workstation with software raid (geom_mirror & RAIDframe in use) and I sometimes use them for tests :]

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I'm always on the look-out for nice lightweight programs to run on my computers. Hopefully, I can compare notes with some Delicate users as to which programs work best on older systems. I've been digging up old source code for various lightweight fltk, sdl and pdcurses applications and adding patches as necessary.

Are those patches written by you?

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  By the way, I don't know if Delicate has a desktop environment available

Our system has several WMs, but the default one is IceWM at the moment. As we're theoretically not limited, adding EDE as one of the available alternatives is not a problem at all.

(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  , but I ran across a lightweight desktop environment project that might work on it. Equinox Desktop Environment ( http://equinox-project.org/ ) is fltk based and has active development going on. I did get fltk to compile with ulibc on an older version of DeLi at some point, so I think this might build in that environment. You can download EDE from:
http://ede.svn.sf.net/viewvc/ede/trunk/edelib/?view=tar
http://ede.svn.sf.net/viewvc/ede/trunk/ede2/?view=tar

We only have fltk2 in the repository. But it seems that fltk 1.3.x is more alive than fltk2 these days. So .... feel free to share your PKGBUILDs in the following section of the forum :
Development / PKGBUILD files ... http://delicate-linux.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=74

... and of course ... if you have any questions or requests .... don't hesitate to ask ...
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05-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Post: #6
RE: questions about delicate
(05-10-2012 09:55 PM)tavvva Wrote:  Sure we are :] It's always good to mention alternatives ...

I'll start a post for listing lightweight alternatives.

(05-10-2012 09:55 PM)tavvva Wrote:  Are those patches written by you?

Most of the patches I use are written by me. If a project's still active, I'll make an attempt to send patches back to the original author. I do check Debian, Linux from Scratch and other locations for patches at times to see if there's anything they recommend changing though. If I like some of their changes, I'll add their patches as well.

(05-10-2012 09:55 PM)tavvva Wrote:  We only have fltk2 in the repository. But it seems that fltk 1.3.x is more alive than fltk2 these days. So .... feel free to share your PKGBUILDs in the following section of the forum :
Development / PKGBUILD files ... http://delicate-linux.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=74

I think dillo is the only program I know of that runs on fltk2 and they're converting to fltk 1.3. Most of the fltk programs I've tried used the 1.1 line and most of them seem portable with a few fixes to 1.3. Even the ede project which uses efltk is working towards using fltk 1.3 in conjunction with edelib instead. At least, that's what I've been reading. Am attempting to get as much as I can working with 1.3 at this point.

I've looked at the Arch PKGBUILDs and related tools and considered using them, but they really didn't work for what I wanted. I've been developing my own build system (similar to PKGBUILDs or Slackware Slackbld scripts). I actually started off using the Slackbld scripts, found them lacking certain features and started diverging to create my own system. I can share patches, URLs and what commands are required to build a package. Those parts should be the same for both systems. Theoretically, I should be able to convert my build information to PKGBUILD scripts programmatically (at least for some cases), but I'm not that familiar with PKGBUILDs and haven't had the need to use them or look into doing so. I currently have my own basic install and uninstall programs working with my package format (basically a tarball with some extra files about dependencies, symbolic links, etc.) and am working on issues such as how to deal with dependencies and how to handle internationalized information about a package. It's all very much still in the works even though I've been working on it on and off for a long time. However, I have it to the point where I can use it on any platform I need (Windows, FreeBSD, Linux) as an aid in building Open Source programs.

(05-10-2012 09:55 PM)tavvva Wrote:  ... and of course ... if you have any questions or requests .... don't hesitate to ask ...

Thanks!
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05-11-2012, 04:58 PM
Post: #7
RE: questions about delicate
(05-10-2012 06:50 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  By the way, I don't know if Delicate has a desktop environment available, but I ran across a lightweight desktop environment project that might work on it. Equinox Desktop Environment ( http://equinox-project.org/ ) is fltk based and has active development going on. I did get fltk to compile with ulibc on an older version of DeLi at some point, so I think this might build in that environment. You can download EDE from:
http://ede.svn.sf.net/viewvc/ede/trunk/edelib/?view=tar
http://ede.svn.sf.net/viewvc/ede/trunk/ede2/?view=tar

I *think* EDE shouldn't be a problem.
I've tried several WM besides the standard IceWM and Fluxbox.
JWM, OpenBox, Blackbox, E16, WindowMaker all without any problems.

EDE needs EFLTK, a quick look at the Arch PKGBUILDs learns that there is a patch needed, and I don't know if it's needed for Delicate... But I'm not a programmer so in my case it's very wise to leave that alone :]

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05-11-2012, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2012 05:34 PM by lmemsm.)
Post: #8
RE: questions about delicate
Latest version of EDE (the files I posted links for) should work with fltk 1.3, no efltk needed. I've been trying to get EDE to build for Cygwin and corresponding with the developer at Sourceforge. He's been very helpful. I only have fltk 1.3 on my system, no efltk.

As I mentioned, I'm not using pkgbuild scripts. My steps to build are as follows below. Set PREFIX env variable to where you want to install (such as /usr/local). Set export command to where your pkgconfig info is or ede won't find the ede-lib info. Mine is at /usr/local/lib

export PKG_CONFIG_PATH="/usr/local/lib"

(cd to where you unpacked edelib)

autoconf
./configure --prefix=$PREFIX
jam -a
jam install

(cd to where you unpacked ede2)

./autogen.sh
./configure --prefix=$PREFIX
jam -a
jam install

I hit a couple of compile errors on Cygwin and made the following changes, but you may not need them on Delicate:

For edelib in src/ts/scheme.c
#if USE_STRLWR
//static const char *strlwr(char *s) {
// const char *p=s;
// while(*s) {
// *s=tolower(*s);
// s++;
// }
// return p;
//}
#else
//# define strlwr(s) s
#endif

For ede2 in pekwm/Util.cc:
//#ifdef ICONV_CONST
// return iconv(ic, inp, in_bytes, outp, out_bytes);
//#else // !ICONV_CONST
return iconv(ic, const_cast<char**>(inp), in_bytes, outp, out_bytes);
//#endif // ICONV_CONST
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05-13-2012, 07:50 PM
Post: #9
RE: questions about delicate
(05-11-2012 12:21 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  Most of the patches I use are written by me. If a project's still active, I'll make an attempt to send patches back to the original author.

Veeery goood!

(05-11-2012 12:21 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I've looked at the Arch PKGBUILDs and related tools and considered using them, but they really didn't work for what I wanted.

What exactly are you missing in the Arch's package system?

(05-11-2012 12:21 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I've been developing my own build system (similar to PKGBUILDs or Slackware Slackbld scripts). I actually started off using the Slackbld scripts, found them lacking certain features and started diverging to create my own system.

How fast and lightweight is it?

(05-11-2012 12:21 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I can share patches, URLs and what commands are required to build a package. Those parts should be the same for both systems. Theoretically, I should be able to convert my build information to PKGBUILD scripts programmatically (at least for some cases), but I'm not that familiar with PKGBUILDs and haven't had the need to use them or look into doing so.

All systems for package creation I know are very similar. Arch's PKGBUILDs are very easy to use, intuitive and easy to learn. They support all features I've ever needed ... our version is older and thus missing support for subpackages (but a workaround exists).
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05-13-2012, 07:57 PM
Post: #10
RE: questions about delicate
(05-11-2012 05:32 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  Latest version of EDE (the files I posted links for) should work with fltk 1.3, no efltk needed. I've been trying to get EDE to build for Cygwin and corresponding with the developer at Sourceforge. He's been very helpful. I only have fltk 1.3 on my system, no efltk.

As I mentioned, I'm not using pkgbuild scripts. My steps to build are as follows below. Set PREFIX env variable to where you want to install (such as /usr/local). Set export command to where your pkgconfig info is or ede won't find the ede-lib info. Mine is at /usr/local/lib

export PKG_CONFIG_PATH="/usr/local/lib"

(cd to where you unpacked edelib)

autoconf
./configure --prefix=$PREFIX
jam -a
jam install

(cd to where you unpacked ede2)

./autogen.sh
./configure --prefix=$PREFIX
jam -a
jam install

this needs to be put into the build section of 2 separate PKGBUILDs (one for edelib, second for ede), then all the NVR stuff, deps, ... and voila ... it should work :]

(05-11-2012 05:32 PM)lmemsm Wrote:  I hit a couple of compile errors on Cygwin and made the following changes, but you may not need them on Delicate:

For edelib in src/ts/scheme.c
#if USE_STRLWR
//static const char *strlwr(char *s) {
// const char *p=s;
// while(*s) {
// *s=tolower(*s);
// s++;
// }
// return p;
//}
#else
//# define strlwr(s) s
#endif

For ede2 in pekwm/Util.cc:
//#ifdef ICONV_CONST
// return iconv(ic, inp, in_bytes, outp, out_bytes);
//#else // !ICONV_CONST
return iconv(ic, const_cast<char**>(inp), in_bytes, outp, out_bytes);
//#endif // ICONV_CONST

Maybe a diff/patch would be better? :] but if this is needed for cygwin only, I believe, we can skip it.
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